Engineering requires a CPCT diploma

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Post from 02/21/2021 - 10:43 a.m.
"From their point of view, a license as a commercial pilot is equivalent to a bachelor's degree."

A degree takes 5-6 years, however, and a pilot's license can be acquired in 22 months.

You shouldn't compare apples with oranges
Post from 02/21/2021 - 10:59 a.m.
"From their point of view, a license as a commercial pilot is equivalent to a bachelor's degree."

A degree takes 5-6 years, however, and a pilot's license can be acquired in 22 months.

You shouldn't compare apples with oranges

Hello!
Where do you need more than 3 years for a bachelor's degree in the standard period of study? If you ask the LH flight students, they have been in training for 5-6 years, involuntarily of course. A bachelor's student can only do that when things don't go smoothly.
The two degrees are actually not comparable, especially a Bachelor in which subject? I have an ATPL and a BSc in Business Administration and Economics and the ATPL was subjectively much more difficult and comprehensive. Yet again not at all comparable, e.g. with a demanding physics degree. The focal points are simply completely different, but I don't think that was the point at all, it was just another arrow against the flying activity in the cockpit.
Best regards
Post from 02/21/2021 - 11:49 a.m.
"From their point of view, a license as a commercial pilot is equivalent to a bachelor's degree."

A degree takes 5-6 years, however, and a pilot's license can be acquired in 22 months.

You shouldn't compare apples with oranges

So I can only agree with the statement. Where can you compare practical training as a pilot with a bachelor's degree?
Of course, the pilot training is not easy, but it is very specialized and just because you are a pilot after sometimes less than 2 years, you are not a good manager or an engineer.
This comparison lags enormously. The job market also shows that as a pilot (with the exception of the railroad, if applicable) you can't really get into many professions, because the pilot training is NOT rated as a Bacelor degree or vocational training. That is why it is strongly recommended to complete a recognized apprenticeship or a degree before attending an ATPL training course.

But this statement isn't new either, I've heard it from pilots a number of times. Sometimes one's own competencies are overrated, for whatever reasons. You are just a professional in a narrowly defined area, unfortunately nothing more.

I'm already looking forward to the discussion ...

This entry was edited on 02/21/2021 11:49 AM.
Post from 02/21/2021 - 2:34 pm
To equate a commercial pilot's license with a bachelor's degree ..... well, I don't know. Obtaining the ATPL is a demanding thing, no question about it, and the job in the cockpit is responsible, demanding, strenuous and demanding. But what can I, as a commercial pilot who has not learned or studied anything else, do as a lateral entrant aside from aviation? If you have acquired additional qualifications in flight operations (Train-the-Trainer, Auditor, Quality / Cpmpliance, etc.), then that might be something else. But if you can "only" fly an airplane, this does not necessarily and automatically qualify you for other things without having previously completed the appropriate qualification, retraining or further training.
Post from 02/21/2021 - 3:55 pm
The Bachelor engineers who needed 5-6 years would have made it to a finished pilot at FR in 22 months and to become CPT after a further 6 months.

Oh man...
One more reason why I don't believe in the bachelor's degree ... unless the engineer has also completed and passed a complete apprenticeship in the 6 years.
Post from 02/21/2021 - 4:39 pm
One more reason why I don't believe in the bachelor's degree ... unless the engineer has also completed and passed a complete apprenticeship in the 6 years.

They don't think much of a bachelor's degree, which a VC representative and pilot thinks is equivalent to a license to become a commercial pilot ...
That means then ...
Post from 02/21/2021 - 5:10 p.m.
You don't have to think anything of those who need 6 years (i.e. double the standard period of study) for their Bachelor's degree.

But you have to know that in the first semesters there are so-called "GOP" exams (mostly the math lectures) which you have to pass in the respective semester in order to be able to (further) study this subject in Germany, which in turn is a very crass regulation is.

The problem with the Bachelor is mainly the schooling, which does not mean that a Bachelor of Science or mechanical engineering is easy in the standard period of study.

It is different with the Bachelor of Arts, it may be that they are comparable to an ATPL and the like.
Post from 02/21/2021 - 5:32 p.m.
Oh man Gordon, reading helps: if you study for 5-6 years! I criticized that. The possibility of extending it to 6 instead of 3 years does not speak in favor of a Bachelor's degree. A lap of honor is ok. a second with justification but then prefer to change occupation. By round I mean a semester!

NS: The pilot training at LFT cannot (or could not) be extended by (e.g.) 12 months. Goes or does not go point.
What's that again: how often can you repeat a driving school test? How often is an engineer exam? How Often an ATPL? Is it clear now what I mean?

This entry was edited on 02/21/2021 5:41 PM.
Post from 02/21/2021 - 5:47 pm
Oh man Gordon, reading helps: if you study for 5-6 years! I criticized that. The possibility of extending it to 6 instead of 3 years does not speak in favor of a bachelor's degree. A lap of honor is ok. a second with justification but then prefer to change occupation. By round I mean a semester!

NS: The pilot training at LFT cannot (or could not) be extended by (e.g.) 12 months. Goes or does not go point.
What's that again: how often can you repeat a driving school test? How often is an engineer exam? How often an ATPL? Is it clear now what I mean?

Well, you wrote ...

one more reason why I don't believe in the bachelor's degree ...

One reason MORE .... rather indicates that you think very little of a bachelor's degree. Whereby we finally agree!

And by the way, I didn't compare it to the commercial pilot license.

This entry was edited on 02/21/2021 5:49 PM.
Post from 02/21/2021 - 6:16 p.m.
In fact, I don't think much of this European leveling off. The former German engineer and graduate engineer training was characterized by the fact that the first preferably had to have a completed apprenticeship - alternatively, a higher school diploma with a 2-year internship. The second had to have a high school diploma for his university studies and only very few internships and was the theoretical equivalent or the addition to the practical engineer (also the other way around).

With this theory and practice-related training, Germany was very successful, but then the Bologna Process standardized the entire engineering system in Europe. But instead of taking the globally more successful one, a wishy-washy experiment was carried out. There should still be universities where you can still obtain a diploma. Why do you think they rebel?

And there are VC pilots, forum participants, and pilots. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but it does not have to be correct. Perception is often subjective.
Post from 02/21/2021 - 7:34 pm
You don't have to think anything of those who need 6 years (i.e. double the standard period of study) for their Bachelor's degree.

But you have to know that in the first semesters there are so-called "GOP" exams (mostly the math lectures) which you have to pass in the respective semester in order to be able to (further) study this subject in Germany, which in turn is quite a blatant regulation is.

The problem with the Bachelor is mainly the schooling, which does not mean that a Bachelor of Science or mechanical engineering is easy in the standard period of study.

It is different with the Bachelor of Arts, it may be that they are comparable to an ATPL and the like.

In the mechanical engineering bachelor's degree, you have to have completed both the basic course and the main course in a certain amount of time and that is about 50% on top of the maximum standard period of study.
This bachelor / diploma behavior is no longer up to date. Someone who can do it doesn't get better with a diploma / master's and vice versa.

The problem with the pilots will rather be that they are lateral entrants, which further depresses the already much lower salaries in the economy. I think that this "attempt" will fail here at the latest, because realistically I assume at least a halving. For 100k you either have to have been in the job for a long time or have proven yourself.
Post from 02/22/2021 - 09:13 am
And there are VC pilots, forum participants, and pilots. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but it does not have to be correct. Perception is often subjective.

I totally agree with you again.

In this case, however, not only a VC pilot or a forum participant, but a management trainer who advises colleagues "for" the Vereinigung Cockpit colleagues on changing jobs, has made this judgment about the qualification of a commercial pilot's license.
It reads in such a way that it reflects the opinion of the VC on this matter. And why not ...
Post from 02/22/2021 - 11:29 am
@ Fw190

In order to be able to start studying mechanical engineering, you must have completed an industrial internship beforehand and you can / must also complete industrial internships during your studies, which each university does differently.
In the master’s program, you definitely have to do industrial internships.

Especially today the practice is but I think rather overrated because the manufacturing processes and costs are no longer as the limit as they used to be.
At the time, that led to wonderfully efficient designs (such as the Fw190), but I'm afraid the times are over.

Where a lot of manual work is necessary (construction, etc.) this may still play a role.

Incidentally, I do believe that training to become a commercial pilot is comparable to, for example, a bachelor's degree in business administration.
Post from 02/22/2021 - 11:32 a.m.
@HPA that with the standard study times actually only applies per university.

That means you can change the university and have everything you passed recognized and continue studying happily. I had a German teacher who, as far as I know, maxed this limit at several universities in a row ...